Roach Ravager ZvP - Powerful Silver Build (ZvP All-In)

On Dec. 22, 2020, 4:33 p.m., StoicLoofah  said:

Thanks for the quick response and update!

On Dec. 22, 2020, 3:46 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

StoicLoofah,

I was just trying to make the build a little shorter. I've gone in and changed it. Hope that satisfies you. GLHF!

Dark_Avenger

On Dec. 22, 2020, 2:59 p.m., StoicLoofah  said:

Quick question: is there a reason why you put "Roach Warren" into the notes rather than as a step in the build order? Would be nice to have it in the build itself so it shows up when you follow the build order in Overwolf.

Thanks for sharing!

On Dec. 14, 2020, 7:54 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

I have some cool tips on my YouTube u won't find anywhere else some of them covering the stuff we talked about here. Check it out. https://youtube.com/channel/UC_gh2_4SQSE4nulYOj_KDrQ

On Dec. 14, 2020, 7:53 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

They fan out is perfectly spaced to mitigate area if effect damage. So you would keep them in this formation move command them directly over the target and hold position. Everytime a muta takes damage only one muta gets hurts. If u were clumped up they all would.like I said it's hard to explain. Easier if I just show you.

As for replay, ya dude anytime. I've been an official coach for over a year. Don't worry it's free. Just add me and we can get you promoted.

Oh and zerg harassment is lacking. They're not really a harrasment race. U have a few options mostly ling bane run bus but fir the most part it's totally ok if you don't harass. You have a late game power spike. So build that economy up fast

On Dec. 14, 2020, 6:27 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

I just realized I have to friend you on Battle.net to invite you to a group first. Send a request to Acerth#1132, then I'll add you to the group and unfriend you.

On Dec. 14, 2020, 1:52 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

Once again, I ran out of space.
Even less important, How do I bait out Prismatic Alignment from Void Rays? I'm thinking it would be hit with corruptors, watch for the Rays to change, then run, (because Prismatic Alignment slows the Void Ray) then attack once they've ended the buff. Last question, which casters should I use, and when or where should I use them? I hope I get to talk with you more now that I've cleared up some confusions, and I look forward to getting more great advice from you! (Oh, i just thought of this. I can send you a replay if you really want to see how I play, and you can critique, if that sounds good.)
Thanks!
Dark_Avenger

On Dec. 14, 2020, 1:44 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

IIEleven11,

Thank you for the great advice! I was playing against AI the other day and they threw 6-7 Liberators at my 25 Mutas and they died within 20 seconds, so *laughs* I don't know what i'm doing. I am aware this won't work in Gold league and above, so I advertised it for Silver. You don't sound like a dick to me, but I think I'm pretty reasonable when it comes to feedback, so you might sound that way to other people, but not me. I might have confused you guys when I said "my group." It looks like you thought I had a discord group, but I meant actual groups in Starcraft 2 itself. I'm not able to use discord, (parents) so I hope i'm able to contact you this way. My main question for this comment: what is a 'magic box'? I have also noticed that it's really hard to win a game as Zerg without saturating your third as soon as possible, regardless of the opponent's race. Here's a less important question: Besides using Mutas, how can I harass the opponent's workers?

On Dec. 13, 2020, 5 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

also i cant just join a discord i need invite
dm me
iieleven11#8207

On Dec. 13, 2020, 4:59 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

vs skytoss you got it wrong, your thinking is on the right track but its not so simple. Mutas are extremely fragile units theyre harassment units not fighting units. theyre for killing workers, denying bases picking stragglers etc. think banshees or libs. Only fight with them when u have a large number and are forced too. You must also learn how to magic box them to be effective, Vs carriers yes corrupters are good, vs void rays mutas arent the asnwer. theyre too fragile. Corrupters, while armored are ogood as long as the void ray doisnt charged up. So the goal is to bait the charge and only attack with the corrupters when theyre on cool down. Storm throws a wrench into all of this. And creates for a very difficult situation for zerg requires alot of apm and casters

On Dec. 13, 2020, 4:50 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

Im not going to sound like a dick here hopefully, but i disagree with a lot of what you said. This game is very intricate and a gold player is considerably new. So you understanding of the game isnt quite up to par yet with guys that have been playing for years. You have the right ideas in a sense but what youre using to accomplish them and the theory behind it is a little off.

First this build, no offense to the creator, isnt going to work outside of anything but bronze and silver. Its inefficient in many ways and if were following a build order we can at the very least follow it correctly in order so in turn we are efficient. Zerg mechanics dictate they need to harvest a third resource, larva. So zerg needs a lot of hatches. By taking a third as late as you mentioned (320-520)
Is going to vastly hinder your production. A normal zerg third goes down at 230 or 26-32 supply. Zerg is a generally short ranged melee race, so you want big open spaces where you can flank and surround.

On Dec. 11, 2020, 2:18 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

(I ran out of space on the last comment)
Against Air aggression in a macro game, it really just depends on what unit they are using. If the enemy has built Phoenixes or Carriers, you will want to build Corruptors. Phoenixes gain a damage bonus against Light, and Corruptors are Armored. Carriers are Massive, so Corruptors gain a damage bonus. (If you encounter carriers, you need to focus fire them down so your corruptors do not get distracted with Interceptors.) Against Void Rays, you need to build Mutas, because Void Rays gain a bonus against Armored (Corruptors are Armored, remember?) If there is a Platinum or Diamond player who disagrees with me on ANYTHING, correct me. I am only gold, and I don't really know what I am doing. I hope this answers your question Alleyrat.

Dark_Avenger

On Dec. 11, 2020, 2:12 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

Alleyrat,

Usually since this isn't a real macro game, you usually just do your best to hit them with the bile or cast one behind the stalker to keep it from blinking, but against air aggression, you might be able to quickly mutate Spore crawlers and draw your opponent to your base but that might not work. If you're actually using this build, you want to ignore that and just try to avoid a battle in the middle of the map and try to start at the opponent's ramp. When you get there, you will want to attack Pylons or Shield Batteries to disable cannons, deny warp-ins and stop stalker healing. I recommended this build for adept-archon because those are not the greatest against roaches (Adepts gain a damage bonus vs. light, not armored. Stalkers do.) In a real macro game, I would be going Ling Muta against stalkers because Lings can take down stalkers quickly. I have also found in my unit testing that Mutas do fairly well against stalkers once you have critical mass (15-20 mutas).

On Dec. 11, 2020, 8:09 a.m., Alleyrat  said:

What you will do against toss air aggression and stalker blinks from ravager casts? 7 minute is too late for roach-ravagers as for me. It is actually work for 1-base all-ins.

On Dec. 8, 2020, 10:42 p.m., ezdiy  said:

@Dark_Avenger: Keep it :) It's popular because of its bombastic name, yet people generally get what they're asking for - a reasonably sensible roach-ravager rush. While not too optimal, it's not *too* aggro either - compared to "proper" 2-base allins that accomplish tighter timings, but are also far more riskier.

Proper macro builds are fairly difficult to prescribe for Z. Being a reactionary race, they fork into a "decision tree" - you may put 3rd between 3:20 to 5:20 with round or two of roaches or banes in between, depending on what opponent does.

On Dec. 6, 2020, 3:40 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

My group name is 'The Cheesers SC2' exactly. I'm not sure if that's how I invite you but, there it is.

On Dec. 5, 2020, 8:10 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

Well lets say you injected that macro hatch. thats another hatch worth of larva. So you can compare it to taking a new base. Same thing You get that nmuch more larva. And it only pops 3 larva at a time. but it can go up to 19. So you can have 19 larva sitting at a hatch in reserve waiting for the space to be used. And yes its mandatory you get at least that many workers in a macro game. Theres also no way to tell what your opponent has other then by going to go look. Zerg has the best scouting in the game with overlords and lings. Use them, lings are the fastest unit in the entire game. And yes I can join if you tell me where to go

On Dec. 1, 2020, 1:38 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

IIEleven11 and ezdiy,

I'm laughing at myself right now as to how bad I am at writing builds. I'm considering just deleting this cause it's not helping anyone, really. I was new to ladder when I wrote this so it's 90% problems 10% everything else, I suppose. Lol. Anyway, Here's my real questions.
Number 1, why would 3 extra larvae help by getting a macro hatch?
Number 2, How can I keep track of how many CC/Nexii/Hatches my opponent has? (I suppose using Overlords/Overseers will work, but Idk, there might be a better way.)
Number 3, Is it really worth getting 88 workers like most people say (at least in ZvP)? It seems like a waste of supply to me, as it's 44 less roaches or hydras.
Number 4, can I invite y'all to my group so I can get your advice more often? I guess that's not much of a question, but, there it is.

Thanks guys,
Dark_Avenger

On Dec. 1, 2020, 8:07 a.m., ezdiy  said:

@IIEleven11: It's a 2-base allin and labelled as such, not a real macro game. This thing has its place if you scout opponent does goes for low eco as well (most lower leagues do).

On Nov. 29, 2020, 8:23 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

So i just saw the replay i wanted to see what the other guy was talking about. But theres a misunderstanding i think about how zerg works. Zerg is unlike any other race because your workers and army come from the same place, hatches and larva. So youre playing like how a protoss or terran would. You cant do this it strangles everything. Instead you should be expanding faster then your opponent taking base after base, staying at minimum one base ahead and ten workers ahead. So try hitting the 66 worker mark then making army, a second hatch in ur main called a macro hatch for larva production can go a long way. Next get your evos off your second control group. put them on 7 or 8 or 9 or 0. those front control groups are prime real estate and you want them for army/casters. dont forget to tech up. roach rav is a tier 1.5 army. it will not beat a late game protoss or mid game protoss army. you need area of effect like banes or lurkers and staying power like ultras or broods

On Nov. 25, 2020, 6:56 a.m., ezdiy  said:

@Dark_Avenger Ye, it looks ok now. If you want first roaches earlier (at around 3:00, and wander in with 3 ravagers at around 4:00 on the opposite side of map), you must go very early gas with Hatch-Pool-Hatch, skip some lings and upgrades, and then second wave with +1 timing between 5:00-6:00.

This will gimp your eco a little compared to standard +1 timing RR meta, and the +1 wave will be slowed by +30s, so I'd not recommend that unless your micro with the initial ravagers is decent enough for the early roaches to work to your advantage.

On Nov. 23, 2020, 4:22 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

ezdiy and MilkEffect,

I'm very sorry for the confusion. I've made some changes and hope this satisfies you. MilkEffect, I'm a little confused how not being able to build a Roach Warren at the time it previously was would be a pool first. I thought I had put Hatch-Gas-Pool in there to help pump up Roach production more quickly, but, like you said, it may still be a pool first. I'm also sorry for making you think this was a troll build. I hate when someone puts something in a build just to make me stumble during a game. Thank you for your helpful comments, and be sure to comment again if I've still got it wrong. Of course, this is my first build order, and It's still being refined. Once again, Thank you, sorry, and GLHF!

Dark_Avenger

On Nov. 21, 2020, 10:17 p.m., ezdiy  said:

@MilkEffect Yep, this seems like some sort of troll build. See scarlett's 12-pool all-in (roach @ 2:00) or Vibe's roach-ling (more defensive/robust, roach @ 3:43) for real timings.

On Nov. 14, 2020, 8:23 p.m., MilkEffect  said:

I could not start a roach warren at 1:44 if a pool was started at 1:24 because of the tech requirement. What you actually did is a pool first.

On Nov. 4, 2020, 10:45 p.m., IIEleven11  said:

Yep of course keep it up. It's a learned skill so it's something you need to practice and study. A zergs worker count is their backbone. So if you wish to macro get that worker count up. 50 drones by 5 minutes 60 by6 70 by 7 and 80 by 8. Calling at around 88-95 drones total. 66 workers is the beginning of your power spike. Or Three base full saturation. It's not until this time that a zerg really hits their stride. Peaking around 88 workers. So you'll find a lot of the meta builds today use a technique or style called the rule of one gas. In which you stay on one gas u til your third is at 16/16. And u rush to fill up that third as fast as possible. This is advanced stuff but you can checkout the build in ZvT. It's posted there. Just make sure your scouting using ur overlords and responding to ur opponent. Zerg is very reactive. Goodluck though kid if you need help you can find me on discord iieleven11#8207

On Nov. 4, 2020, 1:27 p.m., Dark_Avenger  said:

IIEleven11,

Thank you for commenting on my build! I had no idea this was more of an 'all in' build until I read your suggestions and I'm very grateful. Even more thanks for explaining to me the importance of Hatch first. I've used it in some of my new matchups and, for reasons unknown to me, I won those where I usually would have lost to an early Medivac drop or something like that. Thank you so much for the valuable advice!

Dark_Avenger

On Nov. 3, 2020, 1:43 a.m., IIEleven11  said:

This isnt a timing attack its an all in. Youre very very low on worker count, low on base count which puts you in a position of "I need to do damage with this attack or I lose" because of this it's "All in". In regards to that, because its now classified as all in, you should make sure you go all in. Theres a build kinda like this, called 2 base roach. It hits on 2 bases with +1 missle and roach speed. Sure you can make ravagers if you want. Cost a lot of gas though. It also doesnt make sense to make pool first in this situation. Think of it like this, you haver three options, gas first, hatch first, or pool first. Pool first prioritizes slow lings attacking very early. Gas first would prioritize speedlings or banelings, and a hatch first everything else.In this case because youre attacking so late you would go hatch first as the early pool is useless to this build. But, for a silver not bad on making a build, just need to refine a few things and youll be high lvl in no time